(PART 2) 10 Things The Government Has To Be Transparent About How They Use Singaporeans’ CPF

In the first part of the article, I discussed how the government has finally admitted that the GIC does use Singaporeans’ CPF to invest, after years of not admitting to this information. The GIC also admitted to the information, after years of denying knowledge of this. Similarly, the Temasek Holdings also claimed not to invest our CPF when it is known that they had previously use our CPF to invest. It was also found that the government, GIC and Temasek Holdings all changed or revealed this information only early last month, in June. Previously, this information of how our CPF is used by the GIC and Temasek Holdings is unknown to Singaporeans.

Part 1 of the article can be found here.

In this article, we further look into some of the things that the government doesn’t tell Singaporeans about what they do with our CPF and the discrepancies, and the areas in which the government needs to be be transparent to Singaporeans.

(6) Where Are the Full Reports of the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings

In the first part of this article, I ended off by saying that the government needs to release the full reports of the GIC and Temasek Holdings, so that Singaporeans can be fully aware of how the government is using our CPF to invest in the GIC and Temasek Holdings.

However, according to the government, they say that “the size of the Government’s funds managed by GIC” cannot be published because “Revealing the exact size of assets that GIC manages will, taken together with the published assets of MAS and Temasek, amount to publishing the full size of Singapore’s financial reserves (and) It is not in our national interest to publish the full size of our reserves.” The government also claims that, “If we do so, it will make it easier for markets to mount speculative attacks on the Singapore dollar during periods of vulnerability… and it will be unwise to reveal the full and exact resources at our disposal.”

Ministry of Finance - Section I  What comprises the reserves and who manages them  (3)

Chart 1: The Minister of Finance Singapore – Section I: What comprises the reserves and who manages them?

Temasek Holdings also claims that, “As an exempt private company, Temasek is not required to disclose financial information.”

FAQs - About Temasek - Temasek (2)

Chart 2: Temasek Holdings FAQ

As such, the government is unwilling to provide the full reports of the GIC and Temasek Holdings for the scrutiny of Singaporeans.

Today, the GIC and Temasek Holdings are the 8th and 10th largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, respectively.

Now, compare this to the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, the Norwegian Government Pension Fund – Global, and let’s take a look at how they do their reporting and the standards that are set by the top sovereign wealth fund in the world.

You can see that they would provide their reports in full.

www.nbim.no globalassets reports 2013 annual-report annual-report_2013_web.pdf

www.nbim.no globalassets reports 2013 annual-report annual-report_2013_web.pdf (1)

www.nbim.no globalassets reports 2013 annual-report annual-report_2013_web.pdf (2)

Chart 3: Norway’s Government Pension Fund Global Annual Report 2013

The question then is, why is the government, GIC and Temasek Holdings not willing to do so?

Also, as discussed in the first part of the article, the Singapore prime minister, two deputy prime ministers and two other ministers are also the Chairman (prime minister) and Board of Directors of the GIC. Lee Kuan Yew is the Senior Advisor. If the government is the GIC and the information is not transparent, is it safe for Singaporeans to leave our CPF in the hands of the government and the GIC? Who can we hold accountable for the use and management of our CPF? If the GIC mismanages our CPF, can we hold the government accountable if the government (and the Singapore prime minister, no less) is on the Board of Directors on the GIC?

This is a very uncomfortable position that Singaporeans are in when the government is the GIC and the GIC does not publish full reports, and we are not able to know what the government/GIC are doing with our CPF.

Also, the government says that, “The main companies in the GIC group and the Government’s portfolio managed by GIC are also audited by the Auditor-General.”

Ministry of Finance - Section I  What comprises the reserves and who manages them  (4)

Chart 4: The Minister of Finance Singapore – Section I: What comprises the reserves and who manages them?

If so, can the Auditor-General release full audit reports of the GIC?

Right now, Singaporeans are not able to access full reports from the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings. Singaporeans also do not have access to the Auditor-General’s audit report of the GIC. Basically, Singaporeans do not know what the government is doing with our CPF. Is it safe to leave our CPF in the hands of the government, MAS, GIC and the Temasek Holdings when Singaporeans have no idea what they are doing with our CPF?

More importantly, if the Auditor-General is the government and the government is the GIC, then when the Auditor-General audits the GIC, is there a conflict of interest since they are both the government?

Demand for Transparency: Singaporeans demand that full reports from the Monetary Authority of Singapore (which also manages our reserves), GIC and Temasek Holdings be released.

(7) Can the President Know or Not Know the Size of the Reserves?

According to the government, “the President safeguards the Past Reserves of the Government and Fifth Schedule entities”, which include our CPF.

The government also says:

The President is entitled to all information that the Cabinet and the boards of the Fifth Schedule entities (which includes our CPF) are entitled to… The President has full information about the size of the reserves (including a listing of physical assets like land) and the performance of the investment entities. Each year, the Accountant-General prepares and submits the Government’s financial statements to the President. These statements are independently audited by the Auditor-General.

Ministry of Finance - Section II. What is the President’s role in safeguarding the reserves

Chart 5: The Minister of Finance Singapore – Section II. What is the President’s role in safeguarding the reserves?

If the President is entitled to the “full information about the size of the reserves”, then why was it that the government told President Ong Teng Cheong in 1996 that, “it would take 56-man years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of the immovable assets“?

It is now known that the reserves are managed by the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS), GIC and the Temasek Holdings. If so, they would have kept full reports of the reserves. It wouldn’t need to take 56-man years to let President Ong Teng Cheong know the “full information about the size of the reserves”.

Why then did they not want to let him know?

If Singaporeans are not able to know the full information about the reserves and the President is also not able to know, then who exactly is safeguarding our reserves and our CPF? If Singaporeans and the President doesn’t know what is happening to our reserves and the CPF, then what exactly is the government doing with our CPF?

The only way that Singaporeans can truly and safely know what the government is doing with our CPF is when full reports are revealed from the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings are released to be scrutinised by Singaporeans.

Singaporeans demand that full reports from the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings be released.

(8) Is the CPF A Cheap and Significant Source of Funding for the Government?

Earlier last month, it was reported by The Straits Times that then Second Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam had said that, “the charge of the Government using CPF as a cheap source of funds was “wrong and plainly misleading”“.

However, in a Straits Times article in 1983 that was dug up by the Worker’s Party Pritam Singh, it was said that, “The CPF … provided a cheap source of finance for the government”.

The Straits Times article in 1983 goes on to say that, “The CPF purchases government stocks, and the government loans the money cheaply to the HDB. The CPF purchases government stocks, and the government loans the money cheaply to the HDB.” The HDB then “lends part of this money to purchasers of HDB flats”. (So, the government borrows our Singaporeans’ CPF cheaply, then lends it back to us – does this make sense?)

Newspaper Article - The dollars and sense of CPF

Newspaper Article - The dollars and sense of CPF (1)

Chart 6: The Straits Times – The dollars and sense of CPF

Finally, the article ended off by affirming that, “CPF savings provide a significant source of domestic funds available for government borrowing”.

Newspaper Article - The dollars and sense of CPF (2)

Chart 7: The Straits Times – The dollars and sense of CPF

So, who is telling the truth here?

  1. If the government claims that the CPF is not “a cheap source of finance for the government”, how does the government counterclaim what was said in 1983, when it is revealed that the government has indeed borrowed from our CPF cheaply?
  2. If the CPF is not a “cheap source of finance for the government”, then how much is the government paying Singaporeans to borrow our CPF? Or, are Singaporeans paying the government instead? If so, is our CPF an expensive source of finance for Singaporeans who have to lose our CPF to fund the government’s finances?
  3. Also, if the current government claims that the CPF is not “a cheap source of finance for the government”, then what are the other sources of finance for the government? How much are these other sources of finance and what is the breakdown of these sources?

The nail in the coffin could perhaps be what the GIC says when they admitted that, “Sustained balance of payments surpluses and accumulated national savings are the fundamental sources of the Singapore Government’s funds.”

FAQs (1)

Chart 8: GIC FAQ Popular

You would remember that the GIC is also made up of the Singapore prime minister, two deputy prime ministers and two ministers, or literally the government.

What are “accumulated national savings”? Is this our CPF? It thus seems clear that the “fundamental sources of the Singapore’s Government’s funds” come direct from government surpluses and our CPF.

Which is why it is perplexing why the Temasek Holdings would say that it “does not manage CPF savings (and) Government surpluses”. If the “fundamental sources of the Singapore Government’s funds” are the “sustained balance of payments surpluses and accumulated national savings” and yet the Temasek Holdings does not manage them, then did the Temasek Holdings got their funding from thin air? Also, was the Temasek Holdings invested our government surpluses and CPF at some point prior?

FAQs - About Temasek - Temasek

Chart 9: Temasek Holdings FAQ

Thus how much of our CPF is invested in the GIC (and Temasek Holdings)? How much government surpluses have been invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings since their inception? What is the full breakdown of the funds that have been invested in the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings since their inception?

There seems to many very different things that the government is saying about our CPF and how they are managing our CPF. If so, does the government even know what is going on? And if they do, will they tell Singaporeans the truth instead of go in a roundabout fashion to prevent Singaporeans from knowing the truth?

Demand for Transparency: What are the sources of funding for the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings? What is the full breakdown of these sources of funding invested in the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings since their inception? How much did the funds earn in the GIC and Temasek Holdings, for each of these sources of funding?

(9) How Much of the Interest Earned On Our CPF is Not Returned Back to Singaporeans?

Finally, now that we know with certainty that Singaporeans’ CPF is invested in the GIC and was invested in the Temasek Holdings, then the question is why is the GIC and Temasek Holdings earning 6.5% (annualised 20-year return in USD terms) and 16% (in SGD terms) respectively, but our CPF is only earning 2.5% to 4%? According to Mr Leong Sze Hian, the interest and real interest that Singaporeans are earning on our CPF is the lowest in the world.

Thus, why is it that Singaporeans today have one of the least adequate retirement funds in the world?

Slide54

Chart 10: Pensions at a Glance Asia/Pacific 2011

But GIC and Temasek Holdings are ranked the 8th and 10th largest sovereign wealth funds in the world respectively?

Sovereign Wealth Fund Rankings   Sovereign Wealth Fund Institute

Chart 11: Sovereign Wealth Fund Rankings

In short, why did Singaporeans become so poor, while the GIC and Temasek Holdings, and the government which owns them, become so rich?

According the the Asian Development Bank Institute:

To the extent the Government earns a higher rate of return on the CPF funds than what it pays to members; there is an implicit tax on CPF wealth. This tax is likely to be fairly large and regressive, as low-income members are likely to have most of their non-housing wealth in the form of CPF balances. This vividly illustrates how political risks (i.e protection of political power) and non-transparency can arise in an individual account system.

So clearly, not only are the real interest rates on Singaporeans’ CPF the lowest in the world, the interest earned by the GIC and Temasek Holdings that are not returned to Singaporeans is an “implicit tax” that Singaporeans are paying to the government. If so, isn’t the CPF clearly “a cheap source of finance for the government”? If so, isn’t the CPF an expensive source of finance for Singaporeans who are paying our CPF to the government?

You have to understand this – without our CPF, the GIC and Temasek Holdings would have no funds to invest in. No matter how much the government wants to phrase that the CPF is not “directly” invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings and thus the returns earned by them does not need to be returned to Singaporeans, such logic does not hold water because if not for our CPF, the GIC and Temasek Holdings would not have been able to earn in the first place.

Demand for Transparency: How much CPF is (and was) invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings on an annual basis since the GIC and Temasek Holdings’ inception? How much did the CPF earn in the GIC and Temasek Holdings on an annual basis since inception? How much was the interest and money earned by the GIC and Temasek Holdings, using Singaporeans’ CPF, which was not returned, on annual basis, since inception?

(10) Why Did the Government Erase Information that Singaporeans’ CPF is Invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings?

Finally, and this is perhaps the most damning – last year, I traced the information on several government websites that Singaporeans’ CPF is invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings.

I was able to find that our “CPF monies are invested in bonds (SSGS)” which are “borrowed” by the government and “invested in reserves”. “Our reserves are managed by three agencies – the Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC), Temasek Holdings (Temasek) and the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS).”

Where Does Your CPF Go

Chart 12: Information obtained from several government websites

However, when I last checked in May, the government has edited, changed and removed some of the information on their websites.

Two of the key information that are changed is this:

(1) First, the government removed the information that our CPF is invested “in reserves”.

Slide1

Chart 13

(2) Second, the government removed the information that our reserves are managed by GIC, Temasek and MAS. In the new edited version, you are now unable to directly tell that our reserves (and our CPF) are managed by the GIC and Temasek Holdings.

Removed reserves managed by

Chart 14

Thus with this two pieces of information removed, Singaporeans are now not able to know that our CPF is invested in the reserves, and that the reserves are managed by the MAS, GIC and Temasek.

However, you would remember in the previous article that it was only early last month, in June, that the government finally admitted that Singaporeans’ CPF is invested in the GIC. It was also in early June that the GIC admitted that they know that they use our CPF to invest. It was also in early June that Temasek claims that they do not invest our CPF.

All these happened in early June. I lost my job in early June.

So, here’s the chronology:

  1. After I traced the information that our CPF is invested in the GIC and Temasek last year, the government changed the information on their website to remove this evidence so that Singaporeans were unable to know that our CPF is invested in the GIC and Temasek.
  2. However, in early June this year, the government suddenly did an about turn and admitted that our CPF is invested in the GIC.
  3. They also claimed that the Temasek Holdings does not invest our CPF but the evidence is that Temasek Holdings had used to.

These are the questions:

  1. Why did the government first want to erase the evidence that our CPF is invested in the GIC and Temasek Holdings, so that Singaporeans were unable to know?
  2. Then, what forced the government to change their stance to admit that the CPF is invested in the GIC?
  3. What made the Temasek Holdings say that they do not invest our CPF but more importantly, why don’t they admit that they used to invest our CPF before?

Demand for Transparency:

  1. Singaporeans demand the full reports of how our CPF is invested in the MAS, GIC and Temasek since this arrangement of investing our CPF in MAS, GIC and Temasek first began.

  2. Singaporeans demand that full reports from the MAS, GIC and Temasek be released, including how much our CPF had earned in each of these entities, since their inception and how much interest was not returned to Singaporeans.

Very clearly, there are many discrepancies that the Singapore government needs to answer to on the management of Singaporeans’ CPF.

I have illustrated the 10 loopholes that has been revealed. Why does the government not want to provide the full information to Singaporeans? Why doesn’t the Singapore government want to be transparent to Singaporeans?

More importantly, what exactly is happening to our CPF? Until now, we are no wiser on how our CPF is truly being managed, and why we are not able to take our CPF back.

Something is not quite right with how our CPF is being used, or rather, something is very wrong. The government has a duty and responsibility to be transparent in letting Singaporeans know what they are doing with our CPF, to give us the full information and be accountable to Singaporeans.

Singaporeans are fair people. If we know the truth about what is happening to our CPF, we would be able to collectively come out with solutions to better our CPF. But this is only possible if the government is honest and transparent to Singaporeans by providing Singaporeans with the full reports from CPF, MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings.

The government also needs to reform the CPF and the management of the CPF by the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings. The management of these entities cannot be duplicated and have to be trained experts in their fields of expertise.

Finally:

  1. When did the government first start using our CPF to invest in the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings?
  2. How much did the government take from our CPF to invest the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings?
  3. How much interest did the government earn on our CPF which has been invested in the MAS, GIC and Temasek Holdings?
  4. How much of the interest earned on our CPF was not returned to Singaporeans?

The ball is now in the government’s court. Will the government be honest and transparent to Singaporeans? Will the government respond to Singaporeans?

Singaporeans will be waiting.

You can read Part 1 of the article here.

*****

It is clear that something is amiss in the management of our CPF by the government, the GIC and Temasek Holdings. There are still loopholes and discrepancies which the government has not addressed. This are important loopholes that the government has to acknowledge and speak up on, especially so since this concerns the retirement funds of Singaporeans.

What exactly is going on with Singaporeans’ CPF!

On 12 July 2014, an event will be held to discuss the CPF issues and the lack of transparency and accountability from the government and for Singaporeans to demand to the government to #ReturnOurCPF.

You can join the Facebook event page here.

#ReturnOurCPF Poster@pink final

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121 comments

  1. Pingback: (PART 1) 10 Things The Government Has To Be Transparent About How They Use Singaporeans’ CPF | The Heart Truths
  2. The Oracle

    Oh Roy, you are digging a deeper and deeper hole but you will never get to the bottom – because you are digging in the wrong place!

    Most of your “discoveries” above just demonstrate how poor your financial knowledge and deductive reasoning are. For this the government should be sorry – as you have been let down by your poor education.

    • Watch the show

      I dont think so , i think he’s trying to get the people to demand the G which right hole to be revealed until then from the 39.86% will rise up and keep pushing for the right hole . Never ever underestimate the power of people , especially when CPF is everyone monies .

      • The Oracle

        Yes, we are all invested in CPF and we all get the same 2.5-4% each year. Compare this to fixed deposits or government bonds and you will see we have actually been doing quite well. On the plus side, Roy talking about CPF has made more people read and learn. Unfortunately, he keeps jumping to false conclusions as he is obsessed with finding a conspiracy.

        I only started checking out his blog a week or two back and it is the crazy level of misinformation and untruths that compels me to keep coming back to correct Roy. His heart may actually be in the right place but his brain isn’t.

      • dddx

        I have no real issue with the interest rate earned because it guarantees almost no risk but I do have a big issue with:

        1) the CPF’s illiquidity considering that I’m forced to give up the money and can’t get it back until I reach a certain age group, regardless of the emergencies that befall me along the way;

        2) the fact that I am borrowing against myself, should the monies be taken out for any approved uses along the way

      • Chris

        @dddx
        If u r the same person whom I conversed with the last time.
        U claimed to be of the upper classed of sg society. U also claimed that govt policies dun affect the ppl like u becos u make more money than most Singaporeans.
        At most, Cpf contribution is at only $1000, is that a lot?
        Dddx, r u trying to confuse us here? Since u r the upper classed of sg society, r u saying that $1000 of ur gross salary is too much to contribute?
        Lastly, u also claimed my Ang moh is not good. Since ur Ang moh so good, can u bring urself down to my level to tell us what exactly is ur issue here? I really dun get ur point.

      • Chris

        @dddx
        Btw, if u had suddenly become downtrodden. I’m sorry to hear that. Read less of Roy’s theory and get bk on ur feet soon.

  3. The Oracle

    An example of Roy’s deficient/paranoid thinking can be seen in the two points he latches onto under his OLD-EDITED section above:

    Roy: (1) First, the government removed the information that our CPF is invested “in reserves”.
    My response: Of course – the old version was wrong. You don’t invest your reserves in reserves. The edited version is a simple correction.

    Roy: (2) Second, the government removed the information that our reserves are managed by GIC, Temasek and MAS. In the new edited version, you are now unable to directly tell that our reserves (and our CPF) are managed by the GIC and Temasek Holdings.
    My response: Nothing has been removed. Instead, the edited version more correctly describes the relationship between the entities involved. Like any website (and the Singapore government website in total is huge) there may be errors or parts that could have been better written – when they are spotted they should be corrected. For Roy though, a simple correction becomes yet another piece in his conspiracy theory.

    Roy, I would say don’t give up your day job but…

    • Ace

      @Oracle
      1/1. Are you saying that the original people who drafted the information are so daft and are idiots to say that we invest our reserves in reserves and now needs correction. May we know who are these idiots? I bet most of these people are scholars and would not make such a fundamental mistake and what you are saying makes no sense.

      2/2. Your explanation add more questions than answers. Why suddenly make such changes after so long? This makes Roy’s question more credible than what you try to explain.

      What Roy has written has little negative impact on the average Singaporeans so why are you so eager to “discredit” him?
      Are you part of the whole conspiracy?

      BTW “a response or message given by an oracle, typically one that is ambiguous or obscure”.

      • The Oracle

        I am not part of the conspiracy you obviously believe in but in answer to your questions:

        1) Do you think LKY updates the government websites himself? Really, it is some junior guy whose work is meant to be checked by his supervisor, who reports to his boss that the work is done, who might glance at it before telling some more senior guy they got a great website. Same s*** happens in just about any government or company.

        2) Maybe some credit is due to Roy for getting more people looking at these websites. To me, reading the before and after, there has been no major shift – just corrections/clarifications.

        I’ll leave you with an obscure(ish) quote from Cicero as to why I’m compelled to challenge Roy’s untruths:
        “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.”

    • Oracle's Sexy Wife Wants More

      Hi Oracle
      Your wife just can’t seem to get enough.
      Here’s a picture of her second attempt at a pig roast.

      She wanted 2 big cowboys to do her this time.
      And she also wanted your daughter to watch and learn.

      • The Oracle

        Haha, at least you are now trying to be more inventive since I told you off for repeating yourself too much! I’m a perverse person though (I said perverse, not pervert!) so every time you insult me I take it as encouragement that I am getting under your skin…

      • PAPer dollhouse

        That means that the info shared in this blog is getting under the PAPer Oracle’s skin. Thats why he’s commenting to defend his PAPer dollhouse?

    • To mister oracle

      Hi, let me point out your stupidity as well in detail.

      1) you cannot compare how a democratic society’s government sector job to that of a company or coporate. The government are chosen by the people to serve the people. Either way, either the things edited were edited by a junior or a monkey, it is most likely the same pap underlining carrying out orders so your argument that lky didn’t made the edit himself fails to argue any truth out despite ur insistence claim what roy said is also untruth

      2) corrections and clarification? Really? Half true. Obviously the government made the correction because there are too many controversy. They made the correction in an attempt to stop the conspiracy? Isn’t this obvious enough for you? Either way the government does not release it’s fund management to the public even though they collected massive hundreds of billion from the public. This is worth questioning regardless of there are doubts anot. Not?

      3) you said that people are now no longer able to tell directly how the money are managed. Now people are no longer to tell if it’s invested to GIC/ Tamesek and it’s more simple and corrected. Then that just to show that the government had censored the info from the website. Why the fuck are you prompting that the government are being more informative this way.

      What roy are posting may not be truth. But he certainly have rights to questions as even he, poor as he is, his family still contributed to the Cpf? What the fucking is wrong with question the government whether my money were used for this and that and not for my own benefit? Well the answer for you it’s clear, your view of the ruling party is as if they are the supreme ruler despite your upbringing in a democratic country, you have no different from how a north lorand thought of their Kim Jong ii

      Either way, You obviously have little interest in the issue though I would like to praise your effort to meddle and protect your beloved idol. I bet you stay in a privileged private house and have little concern being poor. Are you frearking aware that what you are preaching affect the life of million of Singaporeans living in one/two room flat, you prick?

      Kindly stop rebutting after the newspaper how roy is spreading the untruth, because he have never said what he theorised as truth. It’s a speculation that he have the right to express since his money were of concern and he were not well informed where his money went to. Stop complicating the issue like he’s some mind corrupter, you simpleton tard. Get out of the site if it don’t concern you. Really.

      • The Oracle

        Roy has the right to question, but he doesn’t have a right to spread lies though (hence he is in hot water). I also have the right to question Roy and to expose his lies. I am not PAP, I don’t agree with all their policies, but I do believe Singapore is a great country and if someone is going to criticise it then they better have their facts straight.

        Roy keeps posting his blog and he either doesn’t read the comments people post (I don’t believe that) or he is afraid to answer when he is proven wrong again and again. So, he keeps posting and I will keep posting. Far as I see it, we both have the right to do so. You can keep throwing insults but it just shows how close-minded you are if you can’t handle an opposing opinion.

  4. kantang

    Even a lay person like me with no financial training whatsoever can see this time bomb waiting to explode on all Singapore citizens. The truth about our reserves and our CPF can only be uncovered when enough citizens do the right thing by voting PAP and their cronies out of power. Only then can we find out the ugly truth. Roy, keep asking questions. This is very important. This is the very core of the PAP foundation. You shake it long enough, at resonance frequency and the whole tree will collapse with all the monkeys and cans of worms coming out.

    • Chris

      @kantang
      Then u must go study and read more widely. I am also not financially trained but I bothered to read up.
      No one but urself can help u.
      Every point Roy brought up was rebutted by various ppl. U can go bk to previous posts comments to read.
      Again, if u want to continue to immerse urself into Roy’s stupidity. No one can help u.

      • kantang

        Chris, your response is completely hollow. If you have run out of ideas to rebut commentators here, it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubts.

      • Chris

        @kantang
        Wow, suddenly u became a non lay person. Amazing.
        Anyway I have many more things to comment. Just that things r getting boring here with Roy repeating his idiotic article in difference forms.
        I’m not afraid to show my ignorance. I am always willing to learn and relearn.
        What do u or Roy have to offer?
        Continue this nonsense abt no free speech, no transparency, corruptions, cpf is my money, etc?
        May I ask which point is not rebutted before?
        When sg is so highly respected in being least corrupted and Also being transparent,
        If Roy is not afraid to look stupid by spouting rubbish, why should I be worried if I speak truthfully?

  5. Xmen

    A few comments/observations –

    1. Norway publishes the compensation of its top management. This is a common (required) practice in major corporations internationally. As you can see, the compensation can be very substantial. It will be interesting to see if and what PM, deputy PMs, and PM’s wife, PM’s dad are paid by GIC and Temasek. To some of them, this compensation, if paid, will be in addition to their already out-of-this-world salary/pension.

    2. You should really ask about the total reserve, not just the CPF, that belongs to Singaporeans. Otherwise, to whom does those monies belong? Why is there an obsession to accumulate the reserve when it is already the world’s FIFTH largest (combining GIC/Temasek) at half a TRILLION dollar!!!

    3. Why would anyone be satisfied with savings rate for retirement account? Almost all pension funds achieve returns FAR higher than the savings rate. Any financial advisor advising you to invest your money in a savings account is negligent in his fiduciary duty.

    4. The skeletons in the closet will be apparent once the current people are out of their office. I predict it will not be pretty and it will take years of investigations to sort this out.

    • Chris

      @xmen
      U keep repeating these points from ur previous comments again here. All ur points were rebutted before. What r u trying to do?
      Repeat until the untrue becomes “true”?

  6. dare

    I DEMAND this.. I DEMAND THAT. i am an ordinary person who will like to demand justt like anyone else.

    Chart 1 – shows the demand grows over time
    Chart 2 – shows how “clever” i am over time as i do more research
    Chart 3 – show the exponential increase in the time i spent on the internet
    Chart 4 – shows the more i do this, the more i am disillusioned. Unless there is more than meet the eyes…

    Those supporters READY TO SHOOT. Very predictable action.

  7. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    we should be much much more worried abt ppl like potential Nick Leesons, potential Mas Selamats and potential ambulance and police car burning folks when the population reaches 6.9m, instead of ppl like Roy and bogeyman traitor.

    the max “damage” a small citizen like Roy could do could not exceed Dr Chee or JBJ, which is really incomparable to damage done by ambulance burning folks.

    even organisations with high standards had ppl like Teh Cheang Wan and Lim Sin Pang, it’s reasonable to say no organisation is infallible.

    i am prepared to be correct if i am wrong, but i have never heard of any employee of a SWF being charged or dismissed for any wrongdoing, what could be the reason o this? my guess:

    1) this organisation is special, it is infallible.

    2) the audits are not robust enough to get the wrongdoers.

    3) unknown reason (could be your wise opinion)

    which reason is more likely?

    • jasmine

      Even CPIB ass director charged for corruption.. I wouldn’t be surprise of TH or GIC have their vaults emptied out already.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        for SWFs, I think it’s better not to make claims you cannot prove.

        as for (CPIB) Assistant Director Edwin Yeo Seow Hiong, maybe we did not pay him a high enough salary, we should increase their pay to prevent corruption.

      • jasmine

        @Deaf Frog, did I make any claim here? Or do you wish to stand corrected a second time?

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        Wow. What an interesting chain of thoughts.
        To u the whole world has a chance of being corrupted, including urself.
        I wonder if u keep ur money under ur bed. Becos, our banks will have a higher chance to make off with ur money….
        Lol.
        Ur amateurish thinking makes me wonder when u were born. Qing dynasty before Qing fell?

      • morgan

        @Chris, your chain of thoughts is even more intriguing. Jasmine does not hold any position in the government. IF she is corrupted, no citizens will be affected by her actions other than those who naively believe in her. Similarly, the banks do not force you to save with them. You choose the bank that you want to bank with and you have a CHOICE to put all you money under your bed if you trust nobody.

        BUT, the government manages all Singaporeans CPF. If the government becomes corrupted, everyone is affected. CPIB is under PMO headed by the Prime Minister. FACT 1: An assistant directer was convicted of corruption. FACT2: the chief of SCDF was convicted of corruption. FACT3: School principals were charged for corruption. FACT4: Many HODs were charged for corruption under his regime even when their pay is much higher than what it used to be.

        If the PM cannot control the proliferation of corruption cases throughout the HODs of civil service with higher pay. What makes you think he can control any corruption happening within GIC and TH? Not that I am saying there is. BUT, we see TH being exempt from audit. If things are not transparent, these organisations will be at greater risk.

        This is coupled with recent dubious investment decision to prop up the share price of faltering OLAM. Being non-transparent carries great risk. And being nonchalant like yourself is being reckless. As a responsible citizen, I believe Roy is doing the right thing to bring up these issues. MORE people should scrutinize decisions at CPF, MAS, GIC and TH. Ministers should not be sitting on boards of GLCs to earn double income and make decisions that carry conflict of interests.

        The Lee dynasty is coming to an end, Chris. Repent before it is too late. Your efforts at disrupting online discussions and discrediting Roy with ad hominems is going to waste. You will be one of the first traitors to be hung out to dry once your identity is revealed. Think about it, 2016 is not quite far down the road. Stop behaving foolishly online.

      • Chris

        @morgan
        U r either not thinking properly or not writing properly.
        Corruption is regardless of position, place or status. It doesn’t matter if u r in or out of govt.
        in court’s eye, it is just whether u r or not guilty base on evidence.
        Do u mean to say there’s a type of corruption for public sector and another form for private sector and even one more type for NGO, etcetera.?
        U have written so much words. May I ask, do u even know what’s corruption?
        Do u know why sg is rated so highly as one of the least corrupted countries in the world?
        Do u know any countries that has zero corruption? Ur ignorance in speaking about corruption is so appalling. Did u think abt these urself? Please read more widely. U do not even need to understand maths and stats, just common sense to understand how things truly work. Try not to display ur ignorance to the public even if u r hidding behind ur screen. Dun u feel ashame?

      • jasmine

        @Chris, since you are so free, here are some hypothetical questions for you to ponder:

        1) If Lee Hsien Loong becomes corrupted, how would you find out?
        2) If I am corrupted, how would it affect you?
        3) If Lee Hsien Loong becomes corrupted, would it affect you?
        4) The PM compared to traffic police officer, who would affect more lives when one becomes corrupted?
        5) How does the PM prevents himself from being corrupted?
        6) Is there any independent party checking on the PM like the ICAC in Hong Kong?
        7) How does a rating agency measures corruption?

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        First of all, ppl should not suspect ppl to be corrupted unless there’s any telltale signs. If u go around suspecting ppl to be corrupted or u go around accusing good ppl to be corrupted. Who will be willing to work for u? R u trying to spread lies to rock another’s integrity? What kind of a person r u?
        Ur thinking is not only wrong. It is sick. If every organisations, ppl r suspecting each other. Do u think that organisation will triumph?
        Ppl trying to sow discord is working as a 小人。r u one?
        Unless u think or have evidence or PM displayed telltale signs of corruption. What u ppl r insinuating is totally wrong and despicable.
        On ur question on if u or PM is corrupted. Who will effect me more? It’s obvious. But will PM be elected if his integrity is in question? U trying to divert attention on ur own mistakes is another showmanship of Roy and friends. The good thing that our govt had done is to have every Singaporean educated. So that we can avoid falling into such showmanship.

      • jasmine

        Well done! Instead of answering my hypothethical questions, you go on to attack my character. Like kantang said, your stupidity is beyond cure. I have never said Lee Hsien Loong is corrupt. I am asking these hypothethical questions because in United States and all other first world democracy, there are safeguards to prevent their head of state from corruption. Safeguards like:

        1) The PM has to declare all his assets and those of his spouse annually.
        2) The PM has clear and distinct duty. He cannot sit in board of director of the Federal Reserve for example.
        3) The PM can only sit in government for two terms.
        4) There is an independent party to check on the PM like the ICAC.
        5) There is an independent media to do investigation and whistle blow.

        Singapore has none of these. And the media is directly controlled by the government. What is there to prevent the PM from turning corrupt without Singaporeans knowing it?

      • Chris

        Must we follow exactly what other countries does? We can take what is good for us only. And what works for Singapore. If u not happy, just vote. Then accept the results.
        Icac in HK is it fully independent? Does the head of icac report to himself? Or is there a system to check on icac itself? So if icac head is corrupted, how to find out?
        Do u think there no checks and balance in Singapore? How did ppl get got for corruption then? If u dun if there’s a system or not, dun comment so much. Lots of system r in place in sg, just becos u dun know does that mean there isn’t?
        Ppl who had done NS also dun understand the full saf capabilities. Does that mean saf is lousy?
        Running the country is not doing research. U can pose such questions but the more important thing is to move the country fwd. or u want to dwell in such questions for the rest of ur life?

      • jasmine

        @ Chris, those five measures I raised are good for us. It keeps corruption in check by making it difficult for a PM to become corrupt. Why would it not work in Singapore when it work all over the world? Is Singapore so special that we have to treat the PM with kids glove and allow him to do as he like without questioning his motives?

        ICAC is fully independent. It does not report to the PM. The ICAC checks on the PM and the people checks on the ICAC. Why are there so little checks and balances in Singapore. Why do you think TH exempt itself from audit when other SWFs don’t.

        If there are no checks and balances, what would happen when a PM becomes corrupt? Would we find out too little, too late? Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean all of us must follow you and don’t care. As a citizen, I care about my country just as much as Roy do. I will keep asking questions for the rest of my life if I have to.

        I don’t care what you think about me. This is my country, and I have the right to ask questions. If you want to act dumb, stupid, indifferent and ignorant, go ahead. Don’t pull wool over our eyes and create excuses for the government. We can see and tell what is right and what is not right for the country.

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        So, what do u suggest?
        By hauling false accusation is the right way?
        Current methods of whistle blowing, media, colleagues, etc are available to do the necessary.
        Do u think that if PM is corrupted, there is absolutely no telltale signs?
        The problem in many countries is the laws r in placed to curb corruption. But there is no enforcement. In sg, no one is above the law even PM.
        Ur idea of every one in office is corrupt or the lee family controls every thing is incorrect. Every man in parliament and in key office is a smart and articulate person. U really think these smart men will keep quiet if something is wrong?
        Unless every one in office is in corrupted, I do not deem ur way of judging others.
        Were u ever the head of icac? Did u read the policies in icac? If what u think is correct, what happens if the head of icac is corrupt? Do u set up another icac to counter the first one? There must be someone that icac reports to, and also an alternative person if the first person is corrupt. All these will be stated in their protocol.even our cpib, police departments, etc will have such protocols.
        U think that sg is rated as one of the less corrupt country is by fluke?
        There r lots of policies in place to counter and balance each other. That’s why policies can never be straightforward. And a person on the street will never know what is truly gg on. Even if u have done national service, do u think the NS men know what is the true capability of saf? Don’t u think that they should tell every one the true capability of saf? If there is war, how sure r u that saf can defend sg? All these r valid questions too. But why should saf tell u or me or the NS men? Is it right to tell u everything just becos u r interested to know? R u the right person to pass judgement on such matters?
        By simplifying things, u create a lot of questions, then u make it sound like govt is hidding things. Do u think the huge number of civil servants r sitting in office for fun to devise policies? It’s not a simple walk in the park. Even if u work on a policy, doesn’t really mean u will know the entire policy well.
        U can ask questions but dun go and false accuse.
        If u r truly interested, my suggestion is to go work for a stat board that is involved in ur interest. Then understand about how that department work like cpib or any of the ministry. Do a msc in public policy as well. U will never truly understand how a department work, unless u r in that department and setting it’s policies. Why should govt spend time and effort to tell u everything including the secrets of any govt body? Why dun u ask urself that?
        I’m not dumb or ignorant. But if u think everyone in civil Servic is dumb and ignorant by not reporting any corruption, that’s ur thinking. And u can go on forever thinking that way.
        There is a reason why govt only wants ppl with integrity. If a person is seen to be dubious, he will be pulled down from whatever seat he’s sitting.

      • jasmine

        @ Chris, there you go again accusing me of things I have never said. For the record, I have never said that the PM is corrupted. I am giving you hypothethical senarios to help you understand the importance of having an incorrupt government. I am asking you valid questions of accountability. The PAP government must not only do things above the board, but must also be seen doing so. The question is, why is there a need to remove audit requirement from Temasek Holdings when there wasn’t any need previously. What is there to hide from the auditors? Why is the government hiding things from the public when previously there wasn’t such a need. If you can think for a second, this anomaly would have raised alarm bells. Why do you thing the late Ong Teng Cheong was told it would need 56 man-years to audit our reserves? I am asking very important questions and not accusing anyone of corruption. But you are preventing me from asking these questions. So why are you so preventing me from asking important questions? Is it important to you that we never find out the truth? Is it important to you that my five points of accountability never get implemented? What are you hiding from me? Did you work in the civil service? If you did not work in a ministry, who are you to tell me how a ministry works? Huh?

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        I am not accusing u of any thing.
        In life, there’s full of hypothetical questions and if u want to pose such questions on office bearers. There’ll be no end. Do u see urself as a checker with high moral values and integrity to do such checks?
        In every country, there r checks and balances in their civil services and govt. but the problem is that corruption may be so overwhelming that the checks and balances collapsed. This is not the Singapore way, to allow things to degrade to such level of corruption.
        Sg had always pride itself by installing ppl with high moral and integrity. And if so and so is being questioned on his integrity. He will be hauled up and make sure he is not guilty, regardless of his position.
        When Roy makes his accusations, retracts and then apologies, then repost the accusation elsewhere. How do u think PM is feeling? Amused? Upset? Forget it, everyone knows that I’m not corrupted? Or do u think he should initiate the civil suit to defend his integrity?
        Note that there will be some Singaporean who will doubt PM if he just let Roy go after his persistent actions.
        As a PM, is his integrity not important? Or u feel that it can be put up as a joke for everyone to laugh at?
        Once in court, Roy can present his evidence against the PM. If evidence is valid, u will see cpib, isd, etc crawling into PM homes and offices. Everything will be revealed. It is as serious as that. If PM has anything to hide. PM will never initiate the libel suit. So, I fully support PM in this matter. How else can PM maintain his integrity?
        If u have seen the past few days, there is a number of ppl making false accusations and when asked to make police reports since they said they have evidence. These ppl backed off. In ur opinion, how much integrity do these ppl have? IMO, they have zero integrity. To think that they r running for office brings shivers down my spine. Such ppl will be like cancer cells spreading their thoughts and low values across our political and civil systems. Then sg will become like most other countries with problems like corruption related problems.
        If u truly love sg. Do u want such ppl with low values in parliament?

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        How do u know temasek is not audited? What sort of audit r u talking about? Any link for that information?

      • jasmine

        @ Chris, don’t act ignorant or lazy, go look up the Company Act and see what it says about audit requirement for Private Exempt Company. Then look up Temasek Holdings and see if it is classified as such. Are you trying to insinuate that I cook up a lie? How much integrity do you have? Why are you not doing your own research? Even Roy assert the same thing. Are you insinuating that we are lying? Why don’t you go look it up yourself? What are you trying to defend? If the PM wants to gain trust from the people, he has to be open about it instead of suing those doubters. Who is responsible for investigating corruption charges? Why are people who voice out their suspicions need to provide evidence? Are these people the police? Are these people authorised to open an investigation? Without the authority gathering evidence, how would anyone be charged for corruption? Do you have any idea how the system work at all? If you don’t, don’t try to be a smart alec. I have never accused anyone of corruption. Anyone with half a brain can make an educated guess and sound the alarm. But if the one in charge of investigation do nothing about it, how would any corruption come to light? Do you expect citizens who have no power or authority to do the work for these investigators? Then why should we pay them a salary at all? If the PM do not want people to suspect him of anything, then all the more he should implement the 5 points of accountability that I raised. Shutting people up with lawsuits will only do the opposite and raise more suspicions. Obama open up his account and show us how much he has in his bank. Why is it so difficult for our PM to do the same thing?

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Chris

        what is the basic assumption made when we introduced the policy of high pay to prevent corruption?
        that the tendency of corruption is very low?

        Singapore ranks 5th on the Crony-capitalism index 2014. (higher is worse on this index)

        Singapore ranks 150th on the World Press Freedom Index 2014. (lower is worse on this index)

        the media can be trusted to whistle-blow?

        colleagues whistle-blow? that the most highfalutin argument i heard today.

        PM is first amongst equals.

        u might as well say u expect subordinates to whistle-blow against their boss.

      • Chris

        @jasmine
        Temasek is audited. U can go read it’s Annual report.
        Again, I stress that ppl should not suspect each other with no telltale signs and such. If u do such things, who will ever work for u? That’s not the right way to treat human beings.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Chris

        Temasek is audited by KPMG in 2013, with 2 disclaimers.

        1. The Group Financial Summary does not contain all the disclosures required by Singapore
        Financial Reporting Standards applied in the preparation of the audited statutory consolidated
        financial statements of the Group. Reading the Group Financial Summary, therefore, is not a
        substitute for reading the audited statutory consolidated financial statements of the Group.

        2. Under the Singapore Companies Act, Chapter 50, Temasek is an exempt private company
        and is not required to publish its audited statutory consolidated financial statements.

        i say again, personally i don’t find audits meaningful and why should classified information be allowed to be accessed by a private firm like KPMG? if elected persons like MPs cannot access this information, why should a non-elected entity like KPMG enjoy a privileged status over MPs?

      • jasmine

        @ Chris, as pointed out by Deaf Frog, there are big gaps in the information provided due to TH being reclassified as an Exempt Private Company. If disclaimers of opinion can create a hooha in a small outfit like AHPETC, I don’t see why the disclaimers by KPMG on TH should not create bigger hoohoos and hahas. Any audit that does not satisfy the regulatory standard, especially for a multi-billion SWF should raise bigger eyebrows. Why should we citizens be giving our trust to people who are not transparent? Similar to respect, trust has to be earned, not demanded. I am representing the 40% voters who have not given their trust to PAP to post legitimate questions that remained unanswered. Who are you to deny us our answers? Do you work for LHL? Not that I am saying there is, how can you assure us that no corruption has occurred? If you cannot assure us with your words, then you cannot demand that we keep silent on such issues.

      • Chris

        Well, I’m not against ppl asking such questions but if u slander then it’s a big NO. I am no accountant thus I do not think it’s right to pass judgement on this. But if u feel it’s sic a glaring issue, then why oppo dun question? It may be becos there is a valid reason for this.
        For ppl who want to make remarks like “they have experienced or seen an offense made”. But when ask to report to police, they back away. That’s very unbecoming.

      • jasmine

        @ Chris, I don’t belong to any opposition party, so don’t ask me things that I can’t answer. And tell those people off if you see people slandering your idol. As far as I am concerned, I am not the one who slander the PM. So, don’t get me involve in your quarrel.

    • Deaf Frog's toothpick

      @ Chris

      Temasek is audited by KPMG in 2013, with 2 disclaimers.

      1. The Group Financial Summary does not contain all the disclosures required by Singapore
      Financial Reporting Standards applied in the preparation of the audited statutory consolidated
      financial statements of the Group. Reading the Group Financial Summary, therefore, is not a
      substitute for reading the audited statutory consolidated financial statements of the Group.

      2. Under the Singapore Companies Act, Chapter 50, Temasek is an exempt private company
      and is not required to publish its audited statutory consolidated financial statements.

      i say again, personally i don’t find audits meaningful and why should classified information be allowed to be accessed by a private firm like KPMG? if elected persons like MPs cannot access this information, why should a non-elected entity like KPMG enjoy a privileged status over MPs?

  8. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    if ministers are paid an additional salary for GIC appointments, the value must be declared.

    abolish pegging ministerial pay to top earners in private sector, since no former minister has ever proven that they can get the same pay(or more) when they move on to the private sector, it’s not meaningful to have the peg. by private sector i mean “real” private sector job like what George Yeo is doing now at Kerry Logistics, not a job at a GLC or SWF.

    just allow the government to declare any arbitrary number,they can set any pay they want(higher or lower than now), if they can win election, it’s good enough, we pay them this amount.

    pegging is to try to look for a justification to do something, no justification required, there is no equivalent job in the private sector, any peg will be contested and a waste of time in parliament.

    let political parties declare the salary they want if they become government, set a minimum sum for the salary that political parties can declare, this will prevent opportunists from setting unrealistic salaries as an election gimmick.

    the minimum sum for salary of ministers shall be pegged to the average salary of all the current term MPs(excluding ministers), since ministers are selected from MPs, this is a reasonable base to draw reference from.

    • Talk & Blog No Use

      @ Deaf Frog’s Toothpick
      If you want transparency in government, you have to vote Opposition.
      No use talking.
      Convert PAP voters to vote Opposition.

      60% of your friends, relatives and family voted PAP.
      Focus on converting them.
      Convert one. Just one.
      And if everyone of us did this, 40% will become 80%.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Talk & Blog No Use

        I find blind allegiance to any political party including the opposition to be a silly idea.

      • Chris

        @…toothpick
        I agree. But I only vote for the best. No second best…
        When the current best becomes second best. Just too bad, it’ll lose my vote….
        This is not play play becos it’ll concern sg future. I no money to migrate, if sg go down then I’ll go down with it.
        I never vote for underdog just becos I pity it….

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        metaphorically, Immigration is like a type of drug which’s dosage have to be increased each time it is consumed. how sustainable do you think it is?

        6.9m population is touted as the “solution” to

        the current “problem” of 5.3m population with TFR at 1.29

        now, there is no reason to believe that at 6.9m the TFR is going to go into reverse, when exposed to the same economic realities and stresses of our high speed hamster wheel system, the new immigrants would assimilate our TFR rate instead of behaving in a counter intuitive manner.

        this 6.9m eventually become grey tsunami in it’s own right, so when that is going to happen, what is the “solution” to 6.9m at TFR 1.29? (or maybe even lower TFR)

        assuming the 30% increase calculated by the govt agency’s experts from 5.3 to 6.9 is correct.

        it logically follows that: 5.3m => 6.9m => 8.97m

        solution is 8.97m population?, perhaps more. how sustainable is this?

        the best solution is to raise our TFR. Importing foreigners is the second best solution. It’s the fish bone you end up chewing when you can’t afford the fish meat.

        why should u pay a large group of ppl 7-digit salary per annum each, just for them to come up with this type of solution?

  9. Jim

    Roy, at least TH scores 10 in transparency just like Norway Pension Fund. Most other SWF about the same as GIC in transparency score

    • Jim

      Roy, can you also pls study and update us with the 2013 “pension study” since some facts might be changed just like the MAS / GIC website

    • Chris

      @jim
      Ur idea of transparency is so superficial.
      U think Roy is transparent just by posting his passbook & some simple details?
      Where’s his accounts? Who’s his auditor? Is there anyone dispensing out those money donated? Many more questions. And it’s just a simple donation accountability…
      Can u even imagine how real govt audit works?
      If u want to make things look so simple, just go home and look at ur household p&l, if u have made any. Is that transparent to ur family? Do something simple like that before u comment on govt or Roy’s transparency standards…

      • Jim

        I just want point out that in his blog he question GIC and TH transparency and TH is just as transparent as the Norway pension fund. Both score 10. If Norway pension fund is transparent, then TH is just as transparent. I do not comment on Roy transparency standard.

  10. Chua

    I must have missed something along the way. It seems like The Oracle and Chris has answers to the questions Roy asked. Being someone not in financial industry, I thought Roy’s recent line of questioning is valid. These are some of the questions I have in mind on our reserves and CPF as well even after reading the MOF website. Those who read my earlier comments often label me ‘PAP lapdog’ or other derogatory labels so please do not label me now as Roy’s mindless fans. I am neither. I have no issues with Ministers being paid appropriately for the tough job (in the millions if need be) they are performing but it does make me wonder if the ‘sacrifices’ they made is a lot less than they claimed. Also, since MAS and GIC seems to be most involved in the CPF fund management, I wonder what is the story on the side of MAS. I also wonder whether if the SGSS is solely taken up by GIC or there are other fund managers who found the coupon rate attractive and have access to it. Are there equivalent source of funds out there offering similar rate? However, I think to ask for full figures and transparency may indeed expose financial security risk so it may not be practical to demand full disclosure of actual figures just to satisfy a small segment of citizen’s cry for transparency. So actual figures aside, let’s try to find out less strategic information on how fair/unfair the CPF return is and the GIC board of director remuneration.

    • The Oracle

      Hi Chua,

      Regarding your last two points:
      1) Fair/unfair CPF return: By most financial standards the CPF return is more than fair but some people will never be happy. Our SWF returns are public info and at the end of the day the money flows back into CPF or into the government reserves and ultimately are spend on us in various other ways.

      2) SHOCK! I agree GIC board salaries should not be a secret. AND, all ministers should have to declare all sources of income every year so the electorate can decide if there are conflicts of interest, etc.

      I’ve told others I am not PAP but they choose to insult me for ridiculing their beloved Roy with his untruths and lies. I’m not PAP but I am a patriot.

    • Deaf Frog's toothpick

      @ Chua

      if we discuss Fair/unfair, we’ll end up arguing the definition of “Fair”, there will be some clowns who will apply their own very generous definition of fair and there will be no end to the discussion.

      better to just measure whether the outcomes meet the objectives.

      the joke is,

      if we put human clothes on a monkey, some ppl are prepared to vote for this monkey, you cannot debate with these ppl.

      • The Oracle

        Roy’s your monkey? That explains a lot!

        Reminds me of the infinite monkey theorem – Roy is sitting at home hitting keys at random on his keyboard and eventually (after a loooong period of time) he might actually type something meaningful. But just dumb luck.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        salaries have to be measured against performance.

        when performance does not measure up, pay is revised downwards.
        ;

        weighing pros and cons are about making tradeoffs.

        tradeoffs would have to be measured against their outcomes.

        ;

        when the outcomes are bad, that means the wrong tradeoffs were made.

        and if the outcomes were good, why is the salary revised downwards?

        ;

        no party lasts forever, it’s a choice between buying insurance and being a sitting duck.

        an insurance might not be perfect at first, but tit can be gradually improved over time, if you don’t start, there will be nothing to improve on.

        an employer with foresight will groom alternatives to his best employee, when the inevitable happens, one of the alternatives can take over. the added advantage is this best employee will perform better due to the competition.

        a myopic employer will have irrational blind faith with his best employee, and will start to panic when this employee turns rogue then he’ll find that the only candidate left to take over is the lazer printer.

    • Chris

      @chua
      No one else private or public can buy the special Singapore government securities guaranteed by sg govt.
      I assure u, if SSGS is opened to public, a lot more ppl will put their money in it. But the govt won’t allow la. It’s too expensive, there r cheaper fundings from elsewhere. Thus only from cpf can u get such interest rates…
      Roy is just trying to fan public feelings to obtain his agenda. Ppl can google too. To find the truth, why need Roy?
      Go to mas, cpf, reach.gov.sg, etc.. To find the real truth.

  11. Chris

    @roy
    See today’s cna. Members of public r invited to give feedback on the proposed amendments to the income tax act starting 4 to 24-July-14.
    As u r now jobless and also an activist. And I see u like public dialogues, u should be interested in such things.
    Thus I’m informing u now of such event.
    Dun next year say govt never ask for ur feedback leh.
    Btw, there’s many of such feedbk nowadays. U can go for all of them.
    I just hope u can contribute. Not like the cpf issue, u wrote many half truth stuff.

  12. DN

    Guys, Chris and The Orcle are paid by the PAP gov. (not people Government) to stoop here as ‘intelligent spy’ from the SAF to play you all into their games.

    No point wasting your time agreeing or disagreeing what they comment.

    Just ignore them and don’t engage them at all. They will disappear or let them talk to the air.

    • Chris

      @dn
      Omg, r u stupid? Why do u know I’m paid when i dun know myself? Do u know how much is my pay for doing this? Wonder if I need to pay cpf or not? Until now I’ve not recd my pay. How?
      Whether ppl want to talk to me or not. It’s not that important. The important thing is the real truth must be told. Misleading ppl is terribly wrong. May the curse of the whole world befall on such a person. Death is not enough….
      So, is Roy being paid as well? By who?

    • Ivan

      Oh yeah as there is only two parties involved in the Singapore political scene, PAP and Roy Ngerng. The other oppositions such as LTK are superfluous.

      Unfortunately DN, but there is more to the opposition than Roy Ngerng. He is not deserving and does not represent the entire opposition faction against PAP.

  13. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    did you know that the overseas Singaporean population has been increasing for 10 years straight?

    at 2013 the overseas population count is 207000, how many do you think are coming back?

    207k figure does not include those who have left permanently, that figure is a secret, why? you know why.

    we have to retain what we have, whats the point if we lose our own talents and bring “talents” in the form of Sun Xu, Anton Casey and beer loving folks who overturn ambulance and police cars.

    • Love my country

      People are increasingly going away because this is now a world without borders. With our people getting more educated, they have opportunities to work overseas. It does not mean that people are leaving because the situation here is getting worse. I know people who left because work requires it. Leaving does not mean better quality of life.

      There is no correlation.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        It has been a world without borders for a long time already, not a modern invention. With our people getting more educated, they have opportunities to work overseas. It does not mean that for people who stayed, it is due to the situation here getting better, they simply do not have the means to do so. I know people who left because they wanted to. Leaving does not mean worse quality of life.

        There is no correlation.

  14. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    the easiest way to increase GDP is to increase to absolute number of participants in the economy, and the easiest way to increase participants is immigration.

    predictably then if you let some ppl choose, will they push harder to increase TFR of the local population or increase immigration? which is easier for them?

    1. increase TFR, newly born infant require at least 20years before he/she can be deployed in the economy, you want to collect your salary bonus in 20 years time when that happens? that is assuming you still have the job.

    or

    2. immigration, which is immediate, and you collect you salary bonus this year?

    lets examine the outcomes, non-resident population increased year on year since 2011 from 1.39m(2011) to 1.49m(2012) to 1.55m(2013)

    do you want to peg your pay to GDP increase?

  15. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    Teh Cheang Wan, then minister for National Development. In November 1986, he was investigated by the CPIB for accepting two bribes he committed suicide before investigations could be completed.

    the thing about him which unimpressed me the most is his thick face, even when he was about to die, he made sure he took the opportunity to glorify himself as a “honourable oriental gentleman” in his suicide letter. LOL.

    the joke is,

    would you vote for Teh Cheang Wan or a monkey with human clothes on it?

  16. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    have you ever heard of a hawker, cleaner or nurse suing for defamation?

    i guess not, but does it mean they have never been defamed?

    does it mean their reputation is worth nothing?

    to make defamation law more relevant to the population at large rather than the very few, I suggest we set a minimum sum of compensation for defamation damages, the sum shall be: 10% the net worth of the person being defamed + lawyer fees incurred by the person being defamed.

    this will enhance the protection for ordinary citizens when they are being defamed. reputations of ordinary citizens are not worthless. lets take this seriously.

    • Jim

      @ROY , there is another study on pension fund where Singapore is rated a respectable B. What is your view of this report.
      MELBOURNE MERCER GLOBAL PENSION INDEX 2013.
      Denmark score A, Netherlands B+, Singapore B, Germany C, China, Indonesia D.
      Please study this and comment. You can google this report.

  17. Who Are You Trying To Benefit?

    /// this will enhance the protection for ordinary citizens when they are being defamed. reputations of ordinary citizens are not worthless. lets take this seriously. ///
    @ Deaf Frog’s toothpick

    But how will this benefit PAP?
    If this does not benefit PAP … why should we support?
    We want PAP to do well, so Singapore can do well 🙂
    And if Singapore does well, for sure Singaporeans can do well …. if you can wait long enough.

  18. Alan

    Supposing our PM is a person like Chen Shui Bian, what are safeguards to prevent such a corrupt character from helping himself & his family members to the public monies ?

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ kaki nang

        the president does not have the constitutional power or the means to check on the PM, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong.

  19. Xmen

    The potential for speculative attacks on the Singapore dollar might be true in 1970s. But Singapore today probably has 10x more reserves and its financial resources dwarf any speculative funds by at least an order of magnitude in size (see OLAM.) So this cannot be a reason to be secretive about the size of GIC/Temasek.

    In any case, speculative attacks happen when something is seriously wrong. Sure Singapore stopped the speculative attack on OLAM but at what cost to the taxpayers? IMHO, it would have been better for Singaporeans if its government did not intervene in the attack. The ability to prevent speculative attacks is a double edged sword. In the past 40 years, financially mismanaged countries in Asia were attacks at times. Singapore were not attacked because its finances were sound, not because of its massive reserves.

  20. DN

    Be aware of not only Chris and The Oracle but also others that talk like them. Don’t play their games plot with them. They are paid by the PAP gov in the SAF intelligence unit that pro PAP party NOT pro People Nation.

    Don’t supply them with what your mind is thinking.

    Just ignore them and don’t enage them in ANY ‘conversation’ at all, be it their sweet talk or use words that seek to stir up emotion to snare you in.

    No point wasting your time debating with them or scold them as they plot to lure you in with words as such.

    Mark my word, they will disappear or at best speaking to the air.

    But beware also, they may change their ‘name’ and continue their plot by another names to continue their games.

    They are up to no good. So just ignore and don’t even enage them at all.

    Remember, by their words the are condemned. I know them well.

  21. DN

    Hold your tongue and do not supply what is in your mind to those who are up to no good here like Chris and The Oracle and the like but help and support Roy and the like is the solution.

    Every month just send $2-$10 to Roy, promote him, bring more customers to his father’s stall, join his campaign, ‘got money give money, got strength give strength, got time give time, got idea give idea etc’. We no need to be like them, they are driven by money (get paid with some goodies) but we are driven by justice, righteousness and truth. Trust me our reward is much better – the desire of our heart are satisfied and money will chase after us.

    The least example to ponder: your vote in 2016 worst the amount of money they retained from you in your CPF, Taxes, fine etc. and don’t trade your vote (worth at least $100,000) for cheap goodies like sweet talk, nasi lemak and so called upgrade or subsidies which is not free after all.

    Come out of this bird cage that the PAP schemed and you will find that you are riches from inside out and from outside in. I know what I am saying because those that think and work like me are living example.

    One thing you learn not to do here, don’t engage these PAID pro-PAP ‘intelligence spy’. I know them well and they know what I am talking about.

    • TS

      Yes I’m a fan of PAP, but only because of the sorry state of the opposition parties in Spore. Even if PAP loses in the next GE and Opposition comes into power, let’s see how long it takes before the new government reduces Spore to a sorry state of chaos and confusion that is going to leave pathetic losers like you complaining even more and secretly wishing you never voted out PAP. Now go ahead and slam me and insult me, because that’s all ant-PAP losers know best to do !

  22. DN

    See now Chris and The Oracle transform themselves into “We Hate PAPigs”.
    Don’t engage them here, this is not a good battle field or debating ground.
    Let them play their own games here.
    We come frequently here just to read the blog and read their comment to support Roy spirit and not let them weaken Roy’s and our spirit. They like strong but only from the outside.

    Learn to identify them and ignore them.Then you already frustrate their 2 fold plots here. They don’t come here for no self-serving reason.

    Remember, the devil come to steal, to kill and to destroy and they prowl around as a ‘transformer’ to deceive and snare you into the bird cage seem to be a comfort zone under their dominion.

    • Chris

      @dn
      If ppl know how to read. They can tell who is right and wrong.
      Does it matter if u r for pap or oppo? Is Roy oppo or pap? Or is he Singaporean?
      Ur words perplexes me. Even Nicole seah is making sense. Becos she is ultimately a Singaporean for Singapore.
      What abt Roy and urself?

  23. DN

    Don’t fall into the PAP propaganda of fear and threat when their sweet talk and paradox does not work. Non-PAP party can run Singapore well if not better. Don’t fall into this Singapore ‘doomsday’ fear mongering propaganda of the PAP’s.

    We don’t use their term – Opposition Party. It should not be in our dictionary.
    PAP is the Opposition Party of Singapore.
    True Singaporean should call ourselves : Pro-Singapore Party

    So who say Pro-Singapore Party can not run Singapore well without PAP. There are always constitution that assure a smooth take over whem PAP is out. Don’t buy into their Singapore ‘doomsday’ fear mongering propaganda.

    I am in no way talking to them but reprogram those sincere Singaporean from their decade long of brainwashing lies from the PAP since their self-serving mind took over them.

    • Love my country

      Let’s have an open discussion and meaningful debate. I am all for a party who can do a better job. It can be an alternative to PAP.

      Which party has the resources to run the country? Which party has the brain power to keep ensuring that our country continue to be safe and viable? Show me a party, which I will listen to and respect.

      If you watch the parliamentary debates, even LTK stumbles when questioned. You know how many times he says “I think….”. You know how many times he turns around and looks for Sylvia, because he claims he does not know the answer? You know how many times he didn’t even know what his party’s position was?

      I like that guy, but he is not PM quality. I will not bet my future on him.

      Is there any other person who can stand up and take on this role which encompasses huge responsibility?

      I hope that some day, some opposition party has the means. But this is not the day.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        when PAP is the opposition, do they they have the resources to run the country?

        lets be reminded PAP was the opposition. let there be no hypocrisy about it.

      • Love my country

        My question on whether there is an alternative party which can run the country (now) is still not answered.

        Everyone knows what that answer is, but the anti-PAP folks will never openly admit.

        We can say that PAP was opposition once, but face it, we are in the present. Shall we give an alternative party 50 years (or even 10 years) to let them try and error?

        Many of us complain, but face it, admit it, there is no other party capable of running the country now. Which other party is ready to form a government? Any takers? Ask any opposition parties, and I bet you no one dares to take it up, because the opposition parties leaders know they are not equipped yet. They will be satisfied with minority seats, because that’s how they can best contribute. They just want to be the check and control. Period.

        I wish there is someone better, but truth is, there just isn’t. Anyone who disagrees, feel free to name one party and give the reasons why that party is ready to form a government to run the country.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Love my country

        you have presented a false premise, which explains your arrogant tone, “nobody can get me” thats what i used to say in secondary school.

        no party can run a country on it’s own, the civil service is not part of a political party, the police is not a political party, the judiciary is not part of PAP.

        when PAP is the opposition, we can ask the same question, the answer is, they are not be able to run the country because the resources are not theirs to command.

        any party which is elected will have the resources to run a country, any party which is not elected will not, that includes the PAP.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Love my country

        and you think the current government is not doing trial and error now?

        you know what, the joke is, if the skull is too thick, the wifi reception is affected.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        blind allegiance to any party is a silly idea, that includes all parties.

        who thinks that the PAP will still be around in 100years time? KEE CHIU !! (raise your hands)

        no party lasts forever, it’s a choice between buying insurance and being a sitting duck.

        an insurance might not be perfect at first, but it can be gradually improved over time, if you don’t start, there will be nothing to improve on.

        an employer with foresight will groom alternatives to his best employee, when the inevitable happens, one of the alternatives can take over. the added advantage is this best employee will perform better due to the competition.

        a myopic employer will have irrational blind faith with his best employee, and will start to panic when this employee turns rogue then he’ll find that the only candidate left to take over is the lazer printer.

        predictably, the alternatives will not necessarily become better than your best employee overnight, thats not a problem, you don’t have to get rid of your best employee immediately, if he is still good, u keep him, if the competition makes him better, good for u, but you know that if bad things happen, you have options.

      • Love my country

        My question on whether there is a viable alternative is still not answered. 🙂 I hear/read many words, but my question is clearly still left open and avoided.

      • Deaf Frog's toothpick

        @ Love my country

        the short answer is there is an alternative.

        i am a pragmatic person.

        if your answer is there isn’t, then you need to make your own calculation whether it’s more stupid to have an alternative or more stupid not to have an alternative.

        we know where this discussion is leading to, you want to camp in your ‘opinion bunker’ and defend your generous definitions of “viable”.

        it’s a petty squabble of little value.

        the voters will collectively decide on the answer in future elections.

    • Chris

      What’s a true oppo?
      Did u support pap when it’s oppo?
      What did pap do that is so bad so far? Singapore’s status in the world arena had move fwd, economy doing well, more Singaporeans r richer, the poor Singaporeans r being helped, etc.
      What abt u? What did u do for our country? Did u volunteer ur services at charities? Did u help the poor?
      Ask not what ur country can do for u, ask what u can do for ur country.

  24. The Oracle

    @DN who is scared of me.

    I’ve already made it clear I am not PAP. For example, I have already stated that am in favour of full disclosure of GIC board salaries and would go further to say all income of all MPs should be disclosed annually. I also think GST should not be charged on food and healthcare, and more can be done for the low paid in Singapore. However, I am not driven by blind hatred of the PAP and can also acknowledge the things they’ve done well. Why do you think so many “talents” want to come here? Because, for all its faults (and no place is perfect), Singapore is still one of the best places in the world. But we can make it better.

    I am not PAP but I am a patriot. Roy occasionally makes a good point but he also makes so many bad ones backed up with poor research and/or poor logic that, if left unchecked, he could end up doing harm to Singapore. So, I will speak up and point out when I think Roy is wrong. I am entitled to my opinion just as everybody else here is entitled to theirs.

    You may not like the fact your golden boy Roy has been proven wrong again and again but, instead of shooting the messenger, perhaps you should be asking yourself if you are following the right person?

    • Deaf Frog's toothpick

      @ The Oracle

      you are a patriot? you must have a very generous definition of patriotism indeed.

      you are a fan.

      a fair weathered fan.

      u will be judged by the sum of what u said, not what u proclaim yourself to be.

  25. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    overseas Singaporean population has been increasing for 10 years straight, in 2013 the overseas population count is 207000, this figure does not include those who have left permanently, that figure is a secret, time for the government to release these numbers to get a better picture whether this place is as a good as some ppl would like to boast.

    are we really getting net input of value-add from the immigration or net loss?

    if we are not getting a net value-add, is the cost we paid to expand the infrastructure to accommodate them with our taxpayers money worth it?

    is it a correct tradeoff?

    what is the outcome?

    is the lower quality of life worth the trade-off?

    somebody said we do not have enough space, therefore we have everything up for bidding, despite not having space, we somehow need more ppl, then we say we have yet lesser space, therefore everyone just have to.., well, you know the story.

    will you order more food when u are already full?

    actually u can if you are not the one paying the bill.

    • Chris

      @… Toothpick
      This is not the first time u ask the question.
      U r like Roy? Keep repeating urself as well!
      I’ve answered u long time bk. What do u hope to achieve here by repeating?

  26. Deaf Frog's toothpick

    joke of the day:

    if you approach a pimp in a red light district and tell him u want something that is cheaper faster better, he will ask you to buy a watermelon from the fruit seller across the street and DIY in the back alley.

  27. Chris

    @roy
    So how? R u gg for the dialogue I sent u?
    Or r u gg to ignore it and Complain ext yr that no one ask u to attend such dialogue? There lots of such dialogues. If u r not so ignorant. U would have known…
    So how? U still spreading falsehood?
    Do u think u will be condemn to the worse hell when u die? Hope u think abt think. U and CSJ should think abt such things. By doing so much misdeeds, can u sleep well at night?

  28. Jack

    Singapore Public Debt as 2013 is accounted for $390 billion ,that ‘s the Government borrowing numbers .Its a matter of just few years in time we can achieve the magical 1 trillion Public Debt .What an achievement as Singaporean !…..Hooray !!.We can sell the whole Singapore to highest International bidders to redeems our DEBT and that’s what we trying to do now ,in-fact ,we did slowly and surely.

    • The Oracle

      Jack, you are showing your poor grasp of economics or you are deliberately presenting an untruth by pointing to one number without putting it in context. You point to the gross debt number but the Singapore government has significantly more assets than liabilities so is in fact a net creditor country. I understand Singapore is ranked second in the world in terms of its credit worthiness because of this and despite being a small country.

      Bonds are issued by the government to create a liquid debt market and also special bonds are issued for our CPF monies. The government by law cannot spend these monies so must invest them instead. Most other countries really do have huge net debts but Singapore is not one of them.

      If you search on the web there are plenty of sources that explain this in much more detail.

  29. Jack

    @Oracle
    at Yahoo search Type Gross DEBT Net DEBT scroll through till you meet
    gov dot sg : Factually Singapore Government Online
    below there is blue wording, bottom you’ll see of MOF website , READ IT until where you’ll find :: more gov borrowing in PDF .
    Singaporean ain’t Stupid ,Even in MOF statement said From time to time ,the Government injected Temasek with Fund .
    Really Singapore do have CASH SAVING in reserve ?Why MUST USE CPF? As we all know only in Foreign Cash Reserve yes as in the MOF statement,OTC will find easy not hard to accounted for ,NOT an excuse of 56 years man hours of just LAND OF ASSETS,that used to be our grandfathers land.
    Why must Locked the financial Reserve of CASH with NO Interest gains ,What Singapore means of RESERVE is Singapore ISLAND ,that used to be grand father land,as the ASSET plus Equity of Foreign building and portfolio ,now with Jurong Rock tunnel for OIL tankerage storage.
    Why MUST USE THE PEOPLE MONEY OF CPF and paying low interest? USE the Reserve lah instead,CPF is Not belong to Singaporean is it? Or NOT theirs as their final say? failing to give them back as promise at 55 but only by 65 or 67 onward by paying installment as what long term Bond paying?
    With The DEBT increasing more and more ,Now seems the CPF of Saving of Singaporean has turned into their liability of DEBT !!!!!

    Talks Facts Man ! not B.S as gong-gong licker

  30. Pingback: 10 Things Singaporeans Have To Worry About How The Government Uses Our CPF | The Heart Truths
  31. Pingback: 50 Truths Singaporeans Finally Know About Our CPF on Singapore’s 50th Birthday | The Heart Truths
  32. Pingback: How the PAP Government Tried to Hide the Truth about the CPF | The Heart Truths
  33. PAPer dollhouse

    Poor reputation of govt is attracting the wrong people; wrong people defiles the reputation further. Just look at your neighbourhood grassroot, cc, and rc behaviour

    How low can pap get…

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